Fandom Snowflake

[keiliss]

Day 14: In your own space, talk about what you think the future holds for fandom.

Where is fandom going? I don't know. I know where it's been though, for me anyhow. The Tolkien slash corner when I wandered in was like a spiderweb of interconnected circles, first on Yahoo Groups and then on LiveJournal. We didn't all talk to each other and hang out, but we knew of each other and there was a general sense of belonging.There were fights, some really ugly, there were BNFs who could be difficult, but there was always an underlying love for the elves and men we wrote and read about and concern for one another. I tended to keep my personal life to myself, but when my MiL passed, when my much-loved dog died, when I was diagnosed with cancer, I shared these things and all the support and love and kindness that came back to me were incredibly precious.

That community has more or less fallen apart now, people move on, get busy, have more responsibilities in life. People who came in via the movies weren't always drawn to the Silm when it moved to the centre of Tolkien fandom, the days of 'write the story, don't worry too much about canon' gave way to a bigger focus on 'scholarship', which felt elitist to a lot of writers who honestly were just there for the elves and knew a bit of background but didn't have any urge to study HoMe, they just wanted to tell stories (often about characters no one writes about now). I miss those days and those people and that attitude -- fun and love and a bit naughty and under the radar and there for each other. Many of us were the type of friends who exchanged Christmas cards and birthday greetings (and sometimes gifts). Those friends I still have are doubly dear to me now.

I might find something similar one day in the right Discord, but really to me Discord is just like a Yahoo Messenger group chat that goes on and on and on and I only know some of the people and very often the topic doesn't talk to me... I am not an early first age person as a rule, except for Gondolin. Posting - I know this is a general fandom malaise, but we got comments back then. Lots of them. Even on very average fics. I never posted anything that didn't get at least a few comments on LJ, and I was not one of the mainstream writers (did not write E/G back then, nor twincest or Legolas, both very popular). There was never that sense of writing into a void and there was always someone to measure yourself against, someone to look up to, someone to encourage.

So that's some fandom history. Where is it going? I don't know. I don't think we'll have the answer this time next year either. Fandom isn't leaving Tumblr yet, though it will eventually. They only left LJ when there was a sure landing on Tumblr. There's a new generation over there that doesn't know anything else, but there are many of us who've been around for a while and know it can be better. Pillowfort showed promise but they got the spotlight trained on them way too soon and I think were found wanting --- it's a shame, because they have threaded comments, likes, reblogging, all in the same place, but so clunky and awkward at this stage that it's not a pleasure to go play there (and no easily altered themes, oh come on people, even Tumblr knows that matters!). So, it's not the answer yet. Twitter? Oh dear god, I hate Twitter! What I'd love to see is something as user-friendly as LiveJournal, with the threaded comments and image hosting, plus reblogging. I still host images on LJ when I'm in a rush and when I make a post that needs complicated formatting, I go over there and write it, then copy/paste. Why? Because it's a smoother ride. Sorry Dreamwidth, still some distance to go.


Fandom will go on, because as long as there are tales that have gaps that ask questions like 'what then?' and 'why?', people will fill those gaps as we have since time out of mind. The shape that will take further down the road -- who knows? Whatever happens, I hope we don't fragment too far because one day we'll lose touch so completely that the only place we'll occasionally connect will be in the comment threads on AO3. And that would be so sad because fandom is about the writers and artists and the magic they create and the way imagination sparks from one to the other. This is our sandpit, we need to treasure it.


(okay, that was depressing af but I needed to get it off my chest)

Comments

[independence1776]

I wasn't in the slash corner of Tolkien fandom… but I feel similar. DW has barely kept some of the community for me and if it wasn't for that, I think I'd feel alone in fandom more than I already have.

I miss those days and those people and that attitude -- fun and love and a bit naughty and under the radar and there for each other.

Me, too.

Posting - I know this is a general fandom malaise, but we got comments back then. Lots of them. Even on very average fics.

This. So many times this. Kudos-- and I know I'm in a minority and I've been jumped on for saying this before-- do not give the same connection that comments do.

I do wonder about why the Silm moved so much to the center. I hadn't really realized that until you said it because I've been Silm-focused for years so it just felt bigger, not central. But…AO3 has only a third more fics in its LotR category than Silm (15k to 10k). Ff.net has much more the ratio I'd expect.

[keiliss]

I tell myself that kudos are as valuable as comments and as sincere and people don't always have time to comment or feel comfortable doing so or are on their phones ----- but it doesn't work very well. I think those of us who've been in fandom since before there was AO3 and kudos are never going to be completely at peace with that. (though it is really nice when someone goes through and leaves kudos on a bunch of fics).

I do wonder about why the Silm moved so much to the center.

Not sure, but as I said to Narya, some of the good writers moved on, jumped fandoms, just stopped writing, and Silmfic started moving in to occupy the space that opened up and I don't think it was always comfortable (or welcoming) for the LotR people. Many who had been regular writers started to lurk - I know that for sure because I did a couple of posts about it that drew responses from a lot of people I hadn't seen active in ages. Loved the fandom, just weren't interested in the Silm. Sad.

[spiced_wine]

With me it was loved the Silm, was just not that interested in LOTR. (I did read some of course, and still do!) However, most of the Silm-fic now, is not something I am interested in. I am following (and re-reading) about 2 stories that are based in the First or Second Age. I’ll be interested to see, though if Amazon’s series brings back writers or a new crop writing well...whatever they cover in the series!

[narya_flame]

It might! Although they may end up effectively in a fandom of their own, as many Hobbit film writers seem to be. I hope not, it would be nice to feel like there is a "Tolkien fandom" again, as there seemed to be on lotrfanfiction.com. (Is that rose-coloured glasses on my part!?)

This is partly why I liked Innumerable Stars so much; there was a really nice mix of fic and art across the LOTR, Silm, and movie sub-fandoms.

[spiced_wine]

Yes, LOTRFF.com certainly seemed to be a wonderful mix. I found LOTR stories I loved there as well as Silm.

Fandom ‘splitting’ is sad, and I still believe, from my own reading experience I’ve the years, that if a writer knows the Legendarium (not necessarily as a scholar, but familiar with the Silm, *and* LOTR *and* the Hobbit) their fanfic is so much better; you can sense the broader history behind everything they write.

[keiliss]

So agree with all of this. Innumerable Stars, the Slashy Swaps and the Reverse Big Bang all have a really good mix - that's how fandom is always supposed to feel.

[narya_flame]

Yes, the Slashy Swaps do a great job with this; I was sad to miss MSV this year but work has just been ridiculous so far this month, it would have been more stressful than fun to give myself another deadline.

I was so happy we got a nice mix for TRSB too. Hope it's the case this year as well; I know there were some teething problems with the event, but some great art and fics came out of it.

[keiliss]

My TRSB artist seems to live in their own time zone, but we sorted ourselves out in the end (the art was finished after the fic and bore very little resemblance to the story so I have it linked as 'a scene sometime in the future' :D We still reblog one another on Tumblr. The challenge itself though was very cool, with a lot of really good fiction and art. Also, looking at average number of comments and hits, it got waaay more attention than the recent Tolkien Secret Santa.

[keiliss]

Some strange fics been coming out lately, I assume it's a phase. And --- not sure how to word this but so many feel like writing exercises rather than any love for the characters written about, which always for me is what sets fanfiction apart (well that and the digging around that we do in our protagonists' heads :D).

Wish I knew where Amazon would go with the series (rather than the rumours doing the rounds). Then I'd know whether or not to get excited.

[spiced_wine]

Really? That seems really sad to me. When you love characters the passion shows through and the stories are so much deeper.

[narya_flame]

And --- not sure how to word this but so many feel like writing exercises rather than any love for the characters written about

I know what you mean. I think a lot of people use fanfic as "practice" for original fic, though, which isn't how I approach it at all.

I do write certain characters or scenarios or formats as a challenge to myself, sometimes, but I won't publish anything I'm not pleased with.

[keiliss]

Challenges are good, the problem comes along when everything seems to be treated as a challenge. I knew someone (no longer writing) who would write whoever was popular that month or whoever she hadn't paid attention to lately -- there was no pattern, no sign of which characters/genres she liked even. And her ideas were decent, her writing solid, but there was absolutely no heart. And yeah, her dream was to get published. It just doesn't work.

[independence1776]

It doesn't work well for me, either. I ended up making on Raiyana's suggestion a kudos tracker; it has helped me feel slightly more positive about them than before. People leaving bunches of kudos at once is lovely!

some of the good writers moved on, jumped fandoms, just stopped writing, and Silmfic started moving in to occupy the space that opened up and I don't think it was always comfortable (or welcoming) for the LotR people.

That makes a bunch of sense. For all that we are all part of Tolkien fandom, it does seem like seperate fandoms at times, for better and for worse. Maybe the Amazon series will revitalize that part of the fandom. I hope so.

[keiliss]

Remember the excitement before the Hobbit movies? I was one of the group saying no, it will be its own thing -- and it has turned out very much to be its own thing, because that's how this odd fandom works. I really hope the Amazon series doesn't have the same effect, but anything's possible (and lord knows what they have planned that will cover five seasons...) /After The Hobbit, I'm too scared to hope.

[independence1776]

I do remember the excitement, but I don't remember who said what. Sorry!

Yeah, the Hobbit fandom... well, one person put it firmly in the migratory slash fandom oart of fandom (which has *weird* fads in fics sometimes) rather than being an outgrowth of Tolkien fandom.

I have no hope about the show content, but I do have slight hopes we'll have a fandom revitalization. But it very well could be its own thing again.

[narya_flame]

I don't think it was always comfortable (or welcoming) for the LotR people

I love the Silm and Silm fandom, but I know what you mean. I think it can feel like there are high barriers for entry now, as increasingly writers draw on not just the published Silm, but HoME, Parma Eldalamberon, the Letters...not that that's a bad thing, but it shouldn't be seen as a minimum requirement for participating in the fandom. It's only very recently that some of those texts have become (relatively) widely available, and it's flipping expensive to acquire the whole lot.

[keiliss]

I think it could be pretty intimidating/look incredibly elitist to someone who wrote long soaps featuring Elrond's sons, Legolas or Haldir (for example). And there were some Silm people who could be a bit slighting about that, which didn't help.

I know a decent amount of canon and where to look for things (or who to ask) if I need information, but there's no way I can afford to buy the more obscure works. I think the emphasis that's crept in on the need for scholarship would frighten me right away if I hadn't been here this long, and it's a pity because it's not a prerequisite.

[spiced_wine]

My rule of thumb is: if it is not in the Silmarillion I tend to ignore it. I first read it in ‘86 and didn’t read HoMe until I had already begun writing fanfic. And it never caused me to alter my headcanon that had been brewing for decades. Not that there’s not some interesting things (Morgoth’s Riing is my favourite) but nothing that I can’t do without. And overly scholarly works turn me completely off. I like there to be a decent internal logic and knowledge of the history of Middle-earth of course, but if people begin using fic to showcase their scholastic attainments in the field, it shows, and just makes me snore. It’s not storytelling, to me, it’s more like an essay.

[keiliss]

This, yes. I don't read fiction to be educated, that's a whole different kind of reading. I like the geography to be right and historical references to make sense (to me and to the characters) but for me those details need to be background to the story, not the story itself.

[spiced_wine]

I like the geography to be right and historical references to make sense (to me and to the characters) but for me those details need to be background to the story, not the story itself.

Yes, exactly. I do read non-fiction works on history and even geography sometimes, but to me a story is about characters, not about seeing how many obscure references you can fit in a fic

[independence1776]

This!

Too many times, even on the SWG Discord, someone has popped up with a tidbit from HoME that contradicts what I was saying as if they expect me to change my mind because HOME is given equal, if not overriding, consideration than the Silm itself. I shouldn't feel inadequate simply because I focus on Silm canon! I shouldn't need to feel like I have the entirety of M-e memorized to participate yet there are times I do. And if I'm feeling that way...

[spiced_wine]

Hear, hear.

[narya_flame]

Oh, tell me about it. I like the SWG Discord but occasionally I have noped out of discussions, or not joined in to start with, because someone arbitrarily decides a ship I like is a cliché (*cough* Maedhros/Fingon) or my take on a certain event is wrong because HoME says differently (*cough* the Awakening, which I take a swipe at in Paradox).

Tolkien's views kept evolving, anyway. I think as long as there is in-story/in-verse consistency, fic writers should focus on whichever bits of "canon" make the most sense to them.

(ETA - Keiliss, sorry for borrowing your comments section to moan...!)

[independence1776]

Yeah. The one I can't forget is when I mentioned Maglor had a dog in one of my fics. Someone immediately sent me to a fic they'd written because their author note quoted a bit from Lays where after Huan left, no hound would follow Celegorm... and they'd broadened it out to mean no dog would follow any Fëanorian ever again. And my in-head reaction (as opposed to the polite "it just says hounds and Celegorm, I wouldn't broaden that and don't take HoME as canon anyway") was a "why was bringing it up even necessary? Did you mean to make me feel bad for not knowing that tidbit or were you trying to change my mind? We were talking about dogs in fics, not anything deeper!"

Yes. As long as the story makes sense, why should it matter whose father Gil-galad is or hair color or balrog wings or whatever else?

[keiliss]

Some people forget a so-called cliché is just a pairing or trope that a lot of people love and each writer has new words to add to that pool.

As for right and wrong, you said it perfectly --- one of the things I love about Tolkien is he wrote just the way we do: write it, change it, retcon it, give the guy a beard, no, no beard, let X be Y's son, no, brother, no, they never met..... I wrote a fic based around Nirnaeth Arnoediad and one of my author notes reads: Nowhere does it say Gildor is Finwë’s grandson. Then again, nowhere does it say Gildor is NOT Finwë’s grandson. His family and social connections are a blank slate. I wrote on it. We had fun. I think that sums up my whole approach to right/wrong in Silm fic :D

(I'm just sorry I got here so late thanks to family drama, I'm enjoying the discussion so much!)