business as usual

[keiliss]

Does anyone know (or would like to guess) how long it would take to sail from Numenor to Mithlond? I cringe at the thought of trying to track that down tonight.

Comments

[chaotic-binky.livejournal.com]

I can give you the link to a third age map and you could imagine where Numenor would have been. It has a distance scale which is useful.

http://hugo1900.pagesperso-orange.fr/MAP-OF-MIDDLE-EARTH-VERSION-7.html

Hugs Binky xx

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

That's one of the best second/third age maps I've seen, thanks :) Only problem is Numenor is off there to the left somewhere between the west coast and Aman, and there's no point of reference to measure from.

But it is a cool map :D

[chaotic-binky.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I use it quite a bit.

Hugs Binky xx

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

That's perfect, thank you *hugs*. A week, ten days, fits really well with what I need.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Ten days would work. I was going to say two weeks off the top of my head. Unless you want to say three days or six months, I defy anyone to make a fuss about it! It is a fantasy world and the bottom line is that you are in control!

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Thanks :D I like something to fall back on when I talk 'how long' or discuss geography (which I do my best to avoid) because I have seen people mercilessly attacked for gaffs there before. Not that I care terribly much if I get attacked (which I never am, probably not important enough *g*) but something like 'after three days they reached Numenor' would throw me right out of a story if I knew it was impossible.

I like the sound of two weeks really, half a month, half a cycle of the moon - you can describe it in so many ways. And it's long enough for the interesting food to run out and fresh water to become scarce, but not too long and desperate. Wonder a bit if it's not too quick - wouldn't they be running regular cruises to Middle-earth if it was that close? -- but sometimes it's better to be practical than convenient.

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

More of Burning Bright. And researching --- very lazily -- for later :)

Ha! Yes, that kind of thing confuses me too. She shared that icon with me, as she does sometimes. In fact at any time a decent number of my icons are Red's work, like Erestor here. I've got lazy about making my own :|

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

Want to know my basis for my calculations when I had the same artistic decision to make? I decided upon an approximate time for good passage during height of the age of sail. One could have troubles which would lengthen it significantly or incredibly good winds and good luck which could make it less. I consulted an old friend of late father-in-law who was hooked on age of sail trivia. I did not independently verify.

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Yes, that'd be the way to do it. So - ten days in optimal conditions, three weeks in heavier seas. I can work with that :)

That's a lovely icon. Wonder if the Numenorean ships looked like that.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I suspect they had to look something like those age of sail ships to have sailed so far, so often. Tolkien artists seem to like a model more along the lines Roman sailing ships used for short to medium-length coastal voyages. I admit, however, to knowing next to nothing. (I've discussed with friends that the reason I am not trying seriously to write for publication is not the writing itself, or the characterization or even storyline--which admittedly are not my strong point--but actually the research required in the world-building. Maybe someday.)

[aglarien1.livejournal.com]

I'm glad someone knew the answer! I have no idea on sailing!

[elfscribe5.livejournal.com]

Hi Kei,
I had to calculate this myself for my never-ending WIP. There is also a thread discussing this on the Lizard Council which you may be able to access.
I had to go look up my research again and thought I should really make a master log of research items for myself so I don't have to spend time looking them up again and then again. LOL.
Here's what I said on the thread:
About sailing ship times - I researched that for Osse's Gift in order to figure out how long it would take to sail from Umbar to Lindon. Let's see. I found this site: http://www.evgschool.org/Columbus's%20 Sailing%20Ships.htm that said Columbus' ships made about 150 miles per day, although the source says 100 miles in a day is more average. Vikings ships averaged about 5-6 miles per hour, so that would be 144 miles in a 24 hr. period. Based on this info, I think I estimated 7 days to sail from Umbar to the Grey Havens. That would also mean between 10-15 days to Numenor, assuming nothing untoward happened. And I think I based the mileage to Numenor on the map in the Atlas of Middle-earth.

However, there is a canon note in Tolkien that says it took 39 days for Ar-Pharazon to sail from the west coast of Numenor to reach Eressea. And Numenor was supposedly closer to Aman than to Middle-earth. Then there's info about wind patterns. Mal found this info for me: In Unfinished Tales the first king who sailed to Middle‑earth 'took his ship to Mithlond for the west winds of spring and returned in autumn the following year'. This pattern of travelling is repeated in the story that comes next in UT, about Aldarion and Erendis, where he usually sails in spring and returns 'when summer has ended' or 'soon before Eruhantale. '

So, shrugs. You should use what works for you. When I finally get my guys on the ship from Umbar to Numenor, it's going to take them about two weeks.

Oh here's the thread on LC. I think it's an public access: http://lizardcouncil.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=tolkien&action=display&thread=269&page=1

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Only good thing that's happened in the day :(

Thank you soooo much for all this *saves* Right now I just needed some basic idea of how long, but this killed two birds with one stone, plus there's all the rest that I'll be needing later. Thank you for a wonderfully comprehensive answer ---- the only part I can't do much about is the time of year because that's already set in stone, unless I can find a way around it.

Thank you *hugs*

[elfscribe5.livejournal.com]

Glad to be of service and always happy to share research:
I notice that link doesn't work. Here's the link again about Columbus' shipshttp://www.evgschool.org/Columbus%27s%20Sailing%20Ships.htm

I don't appear to have the link anymore about the Viking ships but I know that data was accurate for the average speed.

And sorry to hear your day has not been good.
Hugs back!

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

The ship on your icon looks a bit like a Viking longship --- a small fleet would make an ominous sight on the horizon if you were a simple villager somewhere in the south :D And thanks (I'm saying that quite a lot, lol), the link's really useful, I like how it explains the basics.

Thought writing down how really angry I feel might help, but it didn't really *shrugs* It'll pass. Thank you for giving me a gift on your birthday :) Reminds me --- banners still need to be made!

I usually like researching, but it's been so hot my brain is sort of mushy.

[elfscribe5.livejournal.com]

You know there's no point to reinventing the wheel. That site about Columbus' ships is very nice for explaining how a ship works in easy to understand terms. Re: the thing that's making you angry. Did you post about it? So sorry whatever it is. Did you read Kenaz's latest post in which she recently discovered that an old boyfriend of hers was just arrested for luring some young woman to his apartment and then chaining her to a radiator and raping her repeatedly over the course of a week. Poor Kenaz was definitely in the there but for the grace of God go I, mode. Lots of ugly things in the world. Better to focus on our lovely fic worlds.
Hugs!!

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Just need the basics, yes. Because I am completely ignorant about ships, rigging, whatever - I vaguely remember it from history in school, but it didn't stick, lol. This is perfect - not too much and in simple terms.

Thinking of Kit's post does really put my upset into perspective. In her place I would be having nightmares ---- the world is so full of ugly things, but we still like to trust it'll happen 'over there' and not touch us. Really horrible.

I love your icon, the work's new to me and if you find the original I'd very much like to see it.

Thanks, G

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Oh and no, no didn't really post about it as such. Can't count four lines and comments disabled :D