thoughts

[keiliss]

I wanted to write a post along these lines yesterday, but the strong reaction against the strike that I saw in some quarters was so intimidating that by the time I found my courage it was way too late. I saw complaints about bullying from a couple of people who chose not to take part, so if my insecurity then – and now – is any indication, I’d say that has been a two way street.

Some thoughts.

Here in South Africa we used to call this kind of strike a stay-away, and ordinary people, second-class, voteless people, with no rights, no power and no status, used it to force the government to pay attention and take them seriously. They did so in the face of whips, teargas, dogs, and guns. Cleaners, maids, general workers, teachers, nurses, shop assistants... everyone stayed home from work, because the simplest way to count heads is to find an empty room where there should be ten people. It would last for a day, two, three, depending on what the ANC called for. These were people who could not afford to lose even one day's pay. They risked injury, sometimes death, on their way to rallies and marches. The effect on the government was simple: they could no longer claim the opposition to their rule came only from a few activists stirring up everyone else. They had to admit that MILLIONS of people were very angry indeed. And eventually they had to respond, because not just them but the entire world could see it.

Yesterday, each time I saw someone comment that not posting was a stupid waste of time, ineffectual, pointless, a sweet idea but with no hope of achieving anything against a big corporation, I felt ill, because to dismiss the power of a well-supported boycott is an insult to the efforts of those people I mention above.

A single day of not posting on Livejournal is not in the same universe as this kind of courage, of course. It is easy, it is completely safe. The greatest danger was from boredom. But if enough people have done it, the black hole where there should have been posts - the empty room I refer to above - will send a similar signal to the new management, who have already made placating noises in advance. They will be aware that considerably more than just a handful of dissidents are upset about the lack of consultation and the high-handedness of their arbitrary changes to policy, and that many members are concerned as to what might be introduced next.

This was about having a voice, by the way Not about specific concerns like the right to post pron or fanfiction, not the right to be depressed or bisexual or… whatever else they had a problem with. Just the right to open a dialogue about the changes that they, as new management, will want to make. After all, most of us would probably get very loud if the terms of the warranty on our brand new car were changed two weeks after we paid for it and no one was interested in offering a refund. And then there’s the part that offers a possible financial threat - if there is enough fuss, prospective advertisers will notice, and question the wisdom of using a site where the members are so clearly dissatisfied.

A couple of other things I want to comment on. The idea that we should do what they DON’T want and post pron, etc….. yes, fine, but how does that make a statement outside of a tiny circle of people? The chances of management finding out are ---- minute. Also, I saw several suggestions that if anyone really wanted to protest, they should delete their journal and try and stop other people from signing up. I can’t speak for anyone else, but me personally? I do not want to damage Livejournal beyond repair. I like it here, I love the feeling of community. I want us to have more security, a say in how our various communities evolve, not to run off to Lost or Insane Journals, which will leave us scattered across the internet and everything we have here will cease to exist. Running away without ever attempting to take a stand solves nothing, never has, never will.

Finally, this isn’t a stupid little game, it’s something a lot of people feel strongly about. I find the idea of anti-strike actions incomprehensible. I’m not talking about those who honestly do not believe this is the right action to take – I absolutely respect their right to approach the problem in whichever other way they choose - or people who have no idea there is anything going on besides a rather slow Friday. And you know – if today was my birthday, I would probably not be happy about this either, especially if I felt the boycott was misguided. Happy birthday, Jai… I am not on her flist, so if someone could pass that along?

The people I have in mind are those who have posted as much as they can today with the deliberate intent of negating the efforts of those taking part, and also those who have posted because they felt that all those posts advertising the strike were bullying them and they Would Not Be Told What To Do.

Do I feel passionately about all this? Yes, I do, and as this post is
in my journal, under a cut, I guess I have the right to get as passionate as I want so long as I do not point fingers and call names. Which I haven’t. No one needs to agree with me. I’m not looking to ‘make a statement’ or argue with anybody. I felt strongly about this, and so I needed to say it before I moved on.

Comments

[larienelengasse.livejournal.com]

Hey, Kei. Thanks for sharing your experience in your home country - I think that sometimes those who have lived their whole lives in a relatively comfortable manner forget that things like this are more than a news story on TV - that they are real and have very real effects on human beings.

Since I was one of the people who chose not to take part in the boycott, hopefully I wasn't someone who made you feel bullied. I don't think I was, but I'd like to offer that up anyway. I support and respect the decision you made to take part in this action, and I know that you support and respect my decision to abstain.

At any rate, I just wanted to let you know that even though we have differing opinions on this issue, I respect that you stood up for what you believed in.

[phyncke.livejournal.com]

I think your post gets at the fact that livejournal is very much an international community and it show that we really do need to think outside of ourselves.

I have experience with protests that differs a bit in the intensity from what you have seen but I do have some history with it too. I felt it important to make the statement too.

I don't run down anyone who chose not to participate. I am very much live and let live.

*hugs* Thank you for the thought that you put into you post. I think it was beautifully put.

[chaotic-binky.livejournal.com]

I am one of those who thought that the strike would not be effective simply because the new owners in the interviews seemed rather arrogant and dismissive of the users. I stayed off because I want to support my friends and I like the idea of counting heads to see how many stayed away. If it makes the new management more amenable then that is good; however,I think the louder protesting voices that said they were unhappy, especially about the censorship, all week before the strike happened, will have had a far more positive effect.

I want to stay with LJ as there is nothing that is as good elsewhere. The problem of censorship bothers me more than the cancelling of paid accounts and I think there will always be digs at those who are not following made up standards that the new owners think they should - where does the censorship end? SUP have bought a very specific type of journal with a specific style of user - they really should have done their homework!

I apologise for the long comment - tried to prune it and it would not let me lol

I still envy your weather, as I sit here whilst it is snowing. Hugs Binky xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[erviniae.livejournal.com]

I totally respect your opinion and your right to feel as you do, and the experiences that you have had.
I will tell Jaiden of your birthday wishes.
*hugs*

[chloe-amethyst.livejournal.com]

Very well thought out and well written post, Kei, and I thank you for it.

The biggest difference I see in what you describe in your home country's history and the LJ Strike is that general workers, teachers, maids, etc., staying home and not working does have an affect on the nation's economy, how homes/schools/businesses are run, etc. It is far more than simply counting the number of people in the room who are missing. The American Civil Rights movement has a long history of similar activism. For myself, I still cannot see how not posting disrupts or gets the attention of anyone. If it indeed does, that's wonderful and I'll stand corrected.

I think it's more important for concerned users to keep up dialogue and to continue responding in large numbers with intelligent comments to LJ's policy posts and such, and to continue to insist upon increased input from users and formation of users' advisory boards. I think that would have more affect than not posting for 24 hours. Afterall, this would be much more directly a means of opening dialogue.

The LJ strike appeared to me much like the calls in the US to boycott Exxon/Mobil over high gas prices. For one day, no one was supposed to fill up their gasoliine tank and thus hurt the oil giant's profits. In actuality, boycotters were filling their cars up the day before and the day after the strike, so there was no affect.

I chose not to participate in the strike not because of any bullying or because anyone told me what to do. And I chose to post content (in my LJ only) that SUP appears ashamed to acknowledge exists not as a means to retaliate against strikers or make those who struck appear stupid. I'm sorry if my explanations for striking appeared to come across that way, as certain wording of this post indicates direct reference to my posts yesterday as either intimidating or mean-spirited to you.

I did however, learn from friends that some people had threatened them or their comms with unfriending depending upon their decisions to strike or not. That is something I strongly objected to in my recent posts, and I made clear this was the case regardless of whichever "side" one is on (I hate use of side as I think these are opinions, not sides). That sort of shunning behavior is what I might call bullying. Several of my flist members also called that sort of behavior "on the carpet", but I don't think any of them were saying that simply supporting the strike equalled bullying. I definitely wasn't saying that. Any alleged bullying did not influence my decision to post or not post--weighing the issues and the expected results did.

I would have very much welcomed and enjoyed having this reasoned, mature dialogue with you on Thursday, and I'm sorry you felt unable to make any comment about it to me. I welcome people with differing opinions and tend to friend people who are the same.

[aglarien1.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this, Kei. Very well said.

*hugs*

[weepingnaiad.livejournal.com]

Good post. Well said.

I think if we all understood their "numbers" and how they sell LJ to advertisers, we could easily corral folks into a "winning" strategy by harming their bottom line. Right now, we do NOT know how they market LJ, and we are taking a stab at reducing their content numbers. I, for one, joined in (easy to do since I was exhausted from the amusement park) as I am always willing to pony up to help in whatever way I can.

*hugs tight*
WN

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I love the feeling of community. I want us to have more security, a say in how our various communities evolve, not to run off to Lost or Insane Journals, which will leave us scattered across the internet and everything we have here will cease to exist. Running away without ever attempting to take a stand solves nothing, never has, never will.

I appreciate your post very much. The sentiment you expressed above was why I chose to observe the boycott/strike, although I was told it was ineffective, might be for the wrong reasons, or whatever. I did not want to be thought to be anti-semitic either, although the likelihood of that was never proven to my satisfaction. On the other hand I shrink at the thought of comparing it to the greater and much more heroic struggles that people have engaged in for all types of social justice. But not to complain at all or simply flee never seemed an alternative to me either. And foremost I really regret to lose track of people because they scatter. I have already decided that LJ will basically have to boot me out.

Thanks so much for posting your opinion.

[talullahred.livejournal.com]

For myself, I still cannot see how not posting disrupts or gets the attention of anyone.
Companies paying for internet adds want sites with high traffic - a one day break of thousands of users would probably not be enough to send them elsewhere, but it could be effective in sending a chill up LJ's management spine. The whole 'what's the point' debate was falacious at best and in many cases revealed more selfishness than acuity (not you!!).

[talullahred.livejournal.com]

Well said. I'm mostly away from LJ dramah these days but I did see that there was going to be a strike and that there was going to be a strike boycot and I was thinking, when will people grow up? Can't this community do anything without throwing a dramah party? Like, dudes, if you don't want to strike, don't, but don't use feeble arguments to bully others - the same goes for the other side. I used to think that this LJ microcosmos was delighful in its naivete. It was fun to watch how people would get equally incensed over the big issues and the little nothings, how the arguments that prevailed on both sides were always more related to the proponent's popularity than with their actual quality. These days I'm just bored... and slightly contemptuous of the whole thing. I guess this is really like a party, a college one - it's not any fun if you're the only one sober.

Your post is refreshing in the midst of it all.

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Oh, I like long comments – they’re always interesting *g*.. I agree that a day off posting won’t do much alone, but when it becomes part of a holistic approach that includes really loud questions, suggestions, and people being observant, not letting them get away with a thing, it has the potential be very effective indeed. Only so many people comment on their admin posts – this is a way of showing them that for every comment there are many, many more members who are dissatisfied.

I think SUP bought in haste without considering the vast differences between the Russian market and the rest of Livejournal. I agree with you about censorship – I have lived with censorship, I think it’s one of life’s great evils personally, but on the basis that money has no colour, no creed and precious little morality, I’m hoping SUP will decide not to dig too deeply into individual accounts. Of course, that’s a naive wish and I know it *g*, but I think it might be the best result we could hope for?

Not sure you’d want our weather tonight. Wind’s blowing, it’s almost cold. Up country they’re having storms. I think autumn’s here. Hope spring comes soon there.

*hugs you*

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Thanks very much, Ervy dear. I liked your post last night, by the way – very fair and balanced.
*hugs*

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

*The biggest difference I see in what you describe in your home country's history and the LJ Strike is that general workers, teachers, maids, etc.,staying home and not working does have an affect on the nation's economy,how homes/schools/businesses are run, etc. It is far more than simply
counting the number of people in the room who are missing. The American Civil Rights movement has a long history of similar activism. For myself, I still cannot see how not posting disrupts or gets the attention of anyone.*

I think we’ll have to agree to differ here, because I don’t see how an action that LJ management will never be aware of unless someone flags you can do any good either.

Comparisons between the American Civil Rights movement and the anti apartheid Struggle in South Africa are superficial at best. Without going into a ten page outline of South Africa history… I’m sure it didn’t help what was left of the economy, but no one, including the ANC, saw it as an economic threat. Mainly, it was a reality check… bombs can be blamed on insane, communist-inspired terrorists, but when Marta who makes the tea at work doesn’t come in, the impact is far more personal. The government said most black people were satisfied with the status quo – the lack of black faces on the streets or in the workplace proved them liars. Numbers – it was all about numbers. Breaking the economy and making the country ungovernable – that was approached differently.

Okay, not quite ten pages, lol. Sorry about that, just trying to explain.

*I think it's more important for concerned users to keep up dialogue and to continue responding in large numbers with intelligent comments to LJ's policy posts *

I don’t think the strike was ever seen as a replacement for vocal and intelligent interaction with Livejournal --- it makes little sense as an either/or situation. I comment on admin posts where it’s pertinent and hope everyone else who is concerned does the same but, as I mentioned to Binky, only a certain percentage of people do so – a well-subscribed posting boycott would reinforce the fact that for every member who speaks out there are x more who feel the same.

*I'm sorry if my explanations for striking appeared to come across that way, as certain wording of this post indicates direct reference to my posts yesterday as either intimidating or mean-spirited to you.*

Actually Chloe, I’d worked out that even publicizing the strike was apparently perceived as ‘bullying’ in some quarters well before I read your post – it wasn’t a comfortable atmosphere, especially as someone had made a few oblique reference to me, so the way I felt was the result of a combination of factors. I thought your post was strongly worded, but that’s a normal result of having an opinion and not being afraid to express it *g*.

The type of threats you mention here are disgusting, and anyone acting like that should be publicly named and shamed – there is a very clear line between discussing, even arguing about, differing opinions, and trying to force someone to subscribe to your beliefs.

I would have enjoyed debating this with you on Thursday, too. I read the comments to your post, but I’ve found it best to keep quiet when I’m upset and/or trying to process something. At least we’ve had a chance to discuss a little here. And I’m sorry for the length of this response – small book, lol. Some things don’t condense well.

Bit late but ---- blessed Oestara.
~Kei

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Thank you, Agie dear.
*hugs you!*

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

More detail on their advertising strategy would be useful, yes – I hope that’s being pursued Weaknesses are so much easier to hit when you know where they are *g*. I think a lot of people who took part weren’t sure it would do any good, but not posting for 24 hours isn’t difficult --- if I felt stressed about something like that I’d be worried about myself, lol. I’d rather do something than sit back, do nothing, but complain about the mess LJ is in.

*hugs you!*

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

I think - when we take a method or principle to heart that has been employed in more dire circumstances and try to apply it to our far smaller current problem, it means the lessons of that event haven't been lost? And that can only be a good thing?

I also heard the rumours about anti-Semitism, but there was absolutely no reference to anything even faintly related to that in the professed aims of the strike, and truly? I think that if the head of SUP had been black, or Arabic, or – heaven forbid – gay, similar rumours would have circulated. And I’m probably cynical, but in the back of my mind I keep hearing the words ‘divide and rule’.

Like you, I have no plans to go anywhere else in the foreseeable future. My account’s paid up till 2010 – I’ll take stock then.

:)

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

I hear you, lol. College? Some of the so-called politics look more like my worst memories of High School.

I’ve been wondering recently about the way this all works. I think because we first get to know one another based on a fairly narrow range of interests – graphics, fanfiction, pretty boys, whatever - the divisions between ‘real’ behaviour and ‘online’ behaviour can occasionally become quite skewed. I have a suspicion that not everyone gets the fact that they’re dealing with real, live people... I still like being part of it though, with all its faults and failings.

Really wish you were around more. Thanks for the comment.

:)

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Thanks Jane. I really respected your attitude to this protest, and the way you stood by your principles. You’ve made your opinion clear without forcing it on anyone, and you’ve been consistent – and those can both be rare qualities.

I think that because we’re drawn together online by similar interests, we do have a tendency to forget we sometimes come from very different worlds

And thanks for encouraging me to post this :).

*hugs you*

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Hi Larien. I think one of the best things about the internet is the way it allows people from different sides of the world with different life experiences to explore ideas. And no, I honestly don’t think anyone could have been further from my mind when I mentioned bullying *smile*. It simply isn’t your style, and you in no way made me feel uncomfortable. Our previous short debate about the strike was marked by courtesy and tolerance on your side – and I hope on mine – and I quite enjoyed it.

I really appreciate the kindness behind your comments, thank you so much.

*hugs*

[chaotic-binky.livejournal.com]

Something strange has happened and I am wondering if it was a fluke or whether it has happened to others. I did not go on LJ on the day of the strike and for me it ended at midnight. I posted Azzy's birthday greeting on 22nd at 00.30. That is what it said and my clock is not out, however yesterday I noticed that the time on Azzy's greeting had changed to 21st 10.13 pm. All the other entry times are correct it is just this one that has changed. Are SUP playing with the account times, I wonder or is it just one of those things.

Odd isn't it?

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

From its place on my flist it looks like your post was after midnight, but you're right, the time stamp is wrong. When she wakes up I'll ask Jane to check all her activities - she made two posts that appear before yours plus she'll have opened her coms.

One question - you didn't by any chance set it up earlier and then post it after midnight? It - shouldn't affect things, but it's the only explanation I can think of.

[chaotic-binky.livejournal.com]

I set it up just before I posted it - well after midnight.

Strange isn't it.

Hugs Binky xxxx

[erfan-starled.livejournal.com]

You expressed things here that let me find some words, sadly lacking until now :|

I'll be rereading the comments here in hopes of taking more of it in.

I have two enduring pictures in my mind. The miner's picket lines and the police activity there. And the price people paid. And my house being 'picketed' by local people.

On Friday, someone on my lj, answered a private email by posting a reply under my reproduced 'no post no comment' entry. What saddened me most was that I did not have the ability to assess this, or the words to protest it, feeling unclear. It seemed to me a piece of disrespect and provocation, as well as abusive.

What gives me greatest joy in this world, is people of belief joining to take action in the face of injustice on behalf of a better idea. That may not be the lj strike, but the reactions - and interactions - seem an identical model to the real world. College politics? Our political house is a monkeys' tea party :| I don't see that lj is any more immature than others? I know grown adults who do not give a monkey's about oh, say, the workings of international debt? Fair Trade? Environmental degradation? Real world costs of their brand name soft drink or training shoes? What's important to one person often is not to another.

My government is about to try to lie in schools about their reason for breaking the law and a multitude of harms done; my government's ally is saying outrageous propoganda over the bodies of more than can be counted accurately. What I like about this post - your entry and some of the comments here - is concepts like 'respect' 'freedom of speech' 'the identification and naming of bullying and bullies' and above all, knowing what's important and having a voice for one's passion.

My greatest heroines? Those who dare to believe and to speak and to go on doing so in a just and unpopular cause. Who are informed. Who can decipher from among so much information what weighs in the balance. Hope for change? Depends on such people and those who are glad to join them.

My greatest sin in this life? Not spending more of my energy where my passions and my beliefs live. My second greatest? Believing rubbish whenever it's prettied up in convincing speak. My third? Being easily silenced.

Therefore, a post like this and the comments that people make here, are welcome for their sheer thoughtfulness. Thanks.

[kitty279.livejournal.com]

Only just found this entry, Kei. (Would you mind terribly if I friended you, to better keep track of posts and story updates?)
It was a very interesting read, as were the comments. You said it better than I ever could, and I agree wholeheartedly with you. I know at least enough about the history of South Africa to understand your feelings and always admired the people there who had the courage to stand up for their freedom. This LJ thing may not be on the same level, but it is still standing up for our belief. And regardless if one thinks a strike helps, doing nothing isn't helping, either, so maybe it is at least a hint for the new owners. I simply don't know enough to judge that.

What I don't understand is that the partaking or not partaking has become a matter of bullying - that is truly sad. Everyone has the right to have his/her own opinion, after all. One can disagree without being nasty. (I have a friend with who I'm usually agreeing on very nearly everything, but we truly enjoyed the few occasions when we disagreed - it made for long and interesting discussions and never damaged our friendship in any way)

Again, very well said!

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

I saw the comment to your post. My sense was that it was thoughtless and rather self-absorbed, not the place to disparage something you were personally promoting. I think ideas on what constitutes good manners vary around the world, don't they?

What worried me most with all this - besides the real bullying, which is the antithesis of free speech - was the way passion was frowned upon. Speaking out passionately for or against something, expressing your reasons, opening yourself to debate - there was a sad lack on my flist at least. Hopefully it was happening elsewhere.

My heroine? Always, no matter what the years have brought, no matter what mistakes she has made in her later life, is Winnie Mandela. Young, pretty, her husband in prison, her friends scattered, not a politician, left with young children to support and prevented from working by the regime, she stood up like a light in the darkness and refused to let them silence her. They knocked her down, she got right back up again. They placed her under house arrest in a small town in the middle of nowhere - she started helping to uplift the community.

Okay, that's a long way from the LJ strike, in another world in fact, but maybe it will tell you a little bit more about what I value than me waffling on for pages about liberty and never giving up, not running away, not going quietly.

Just looking at your list of greatest sins. I - like to get along with people. I don't court drama. Sometimes that makes me more diplomatic than I should be. And the bit about believing things if they're prettied up enough? Oh lord, yes, don't we all? It's so much easier.

A lot of the comments this post drew have given me food for thought. A dialogue this opened up with someone who disagrees with me has also made me assess a few things, try to look at them from a different angle. I think when all's said and done, we each have our own morality and the best we can do is stay true to it and ourselves?

This looks like one of my emails, just more all over the place than usual. I apologise, lol. Thank you for sharing your thoughts here.

~me.

[erfan-starled.livejournal.com]

Apologise? - that was actually painful to read there at the end. And it's your journal. Please don't apologise for having things to say and being willing to say them? It was a pleasure to read, anyway. Um, I cannot spell her name, but An Sang Sou Chi, comes to mind. Winnie, yes, and what happened later could never diminish all that she did. My country is particularly bad for tearing people down. Never want to celebrate people, only to criticise mistakes. I don't hold with that. Heroines are usually flawed, that's the human condition; it's what they do that counts.

I think when all's said and done, we each have our own morality and the best we can do is stay true to it and ourselves? My highest ideal, integrity. Knowing what I believe and living by it. The first bit of that can be harder than the second bit, I sometimes think :| I am rather deeply impressed by meeting some folk whose tenet is that their word is true. They seem to mean it.

Do you remember the film, Troy, and Sean Bean's lovely voice, at the end, I have walked with giants... Gandhi visited where I live, and stayed here. There is a lake, and tall, old trees. He was glad to return, in Delhi, in the last year of his life, a number of times to meet with people who worshipped in silence and believed in non-violence. I felt terribly moved: Refusing to let anyone be his enemy, appealing instead to the good in people even if it took time, upholding equal rights meaning letting men express their gentle, co-operative qualities, these were some of his beliefs. Gandhi said that a minority of one might be right. And that for evil to happen needed only the majority to keep quiet.

Passion is not well-received and is very often misunderstood in the emotional experience of witnesses or recipients. But passion can drive the process of speaking in a measured, clear way that speaks one's truth, even when it is at odds. I was pleased when I finally worked out that was what anger is for - energy to act, to speak, to know a boundary has been crossed. Speaking out - not a thing I do unless it's important. And at such times, I guess that's my highest prayer, for the integrity to speak and stand for my beliefs when it matters. Maybe it helps to practice in small things first? :)

I am going to a peace conference on Friday, and was only today dismayed by the effort involved.

If I ever took a stand I'd be worrying about what people would think. If I was lucky enough not to have to worry about what people would do. And I have faced, on my own, twenty people or more speaking against me, repeatedly, where I live. An interesting experience. To face police, or an armed mob - would take courage. They still kill people here for being gay. People can be strangely hateful.

This is longer :| I have to post it, edit it or delete it. *posts*

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

Hi Kitty :)

As you say, regardless of whether it did any good or not, doing nothing doesn't help either - even doing the wrong thing can often be better than doing nothing at all, to my mind at least. I don't know if it helped, or how much. Something like this has never been tried before - but that's why I think it was doubly important, because you don't know if you don't try.

I respect anyone's right NOT to participate in a protest - that's what freedom of speech is all about, to speak or to choose not to speak. What I had a huge problem with were the people who organised a kind of anti-strike movement and actively worked against it. I found that very hard to understand, harder to condone. It felt very small-minded.

I liked what you said about you and your friend disagreeing. It's nice to be of one mind about things, we pick our friends mainly for what we have in common after all, but I think we grow most when we explore ideas that are the opposite to our own. I think also sometimes we think we believe something simply because we haven't been challenged on it, and discussing it can give a totally different angle to things? I've had a very interesting debate with someone who does not approve trying to persuade someone over to your point of view - it didn't change my opinion, but she made me think *g*.

Please go ahead and friend me, I'm very happy to have you on my flist :) I'm about to take the liberty of friending you - I hope that's all right? Thank you for adding to the comments here.

~Kei

[keiliss.livejournal.com]

An Sang Sou Chi, yes (going with your spelling, which looks right) Ma Winnie... I think she fought for so long, lived in such a surreal world, that she sometimes forgets how to stop. The trouble with the world is we don't feel comfortable with heroes... it's easier, safer, to tear them down so we don't have to compare ourselves and find we are wanting (yes, okay, it's late, I'm cynical)

Gandhi - 'hero' might be the wrong word. I'm not sure he would like it... He is one of ours here though. He lived here, there are all sorts of memorials to him, Accepting the good in everyone --- I think it must be such a difficult thing to do. Peace conference? Making peace is so much harder than making war - people are less inclined to listen too.

People hate the unknown, the thing they don't understand they fear, fear manifests as anger and hate means you don't have to explain it. They killed a lesbian couple in Soweto a while back --- in a country where gay adoption has been accepted for years, where gay marriage is legal, and discrimination is forbidden by the Constitution.

And that was not the note I wanted to end on :( Anger properly directed, with intelligence and integrity, can be the most fine-edged,. relentless weapon against injustice in the world. Undirected by intelligence, it turns back into the caveman's club.

I should be asleep.
*hugs you*

[erfan-starled.livejournal.com]

**big hugs** Go to bed.

[kitty279.livejournal.com]

Thank you! And though I use my LJ mostly to leave logged-in comments, of course you're very welcome to friend me, too! :-)

You're completely right - of course we pick our friends mainly on the basis of shared interests and getting along well in general; it's only logical, I think - otherwise we wouldn't have much to talk about with each other. But when we disagree with someone and are able to discuss it without quarreling, it helps to look at something from different angles, and that's something good. Even if we don't agree with this other POV, it forces us to re-think the own opinion and, in the best case, to understand why others think differently. At least if we are open-minded enough to try to understand, no matter if we share this opinion. And sometimes we have simply to admit that the other has a point, too, and maybe change our own opinion.

And a discussion with real arguments can be fun anyway, no matter the outcome, as long as it is kept on a factual level and not taken too personal. It's a bit of an intellectual challenge to convince with arguments instead of only repeating simplistic phrases like the yellow press uses, as some people do ;-)

Kitty