(no subject)

[keiliss]

Okay, so yet another well meaning person has told me "Doubt is a great story. You know, if it was Erestor/Glorfindel it would be much more popular, people just don't usually bother to read pairings like Glorfindel/Gil-galad unless there's a lot of smut."

From which I gather that I am wasting my time, and if I'm not prepared to either write E/G or else go the 'less plot, much more smut' route, I should find another fandom or something. I am just so SICK of this!!!! This is meant to be the LotR fandom but it isn't, it's been turned into the E/G fandom. Doesn't matter how badly written, doesn't matter how weak the plot, how two-dimensional characters, as long as a story features The Couple....

I don’t get masses of fb – well, it’s been 17 chapters so far, fb drops off after a while, I know - and what I get tends to be from people I very much respect, who really encourage me, but then I meet people online who go "You're a writer? Oh, what have you written? Oh, Elrond/Glorfindel, Glorfindel/GG? Oh, sorry, I haven't read any of your fics but, well, I really only like Erestor and Glory - just love Erestor...."

Maybe I’m shallow to get insulted and upset and angry when people tell me that, as though my characters are somehow *less* than their adored OMC, but that’s how I feel tonight. What I hate is the implied lack of respect, when ability takes second place to choice of character, when I am made to feel useless as a writer not because I'm no good, but because I don't write a specific pairing. That's like saying you will only read detective stories, and only by one author, or only with stories set in west Yorkshire....In any other genre this would be laughable.

Not reading a pairing because you've tried them and really don't like it is fine, only reading one pairing, and regarding anything else as unimportant is an insult to those of us who write outside that little comfort zone. And you know what? Sometimes, when it gets said oh so casually – ‘Oh, I only read Erestor/Glorfindel’ – it hurts. It actually hurts. Those words dismiss all other characters, including mine, who I happen to love, as inferior and not worth the effort of even glancing at.

Don’t get me wrong, this isn’t one of those rants that ends with a threat to not finish the fic, leave the fandom, etc…I would write Doubt if no one was reading it except me, I write because I love doing it, I love whatever story it is I am telling and get very involved with my characters, and this is the only fandom I am currently interested in writing in.

*goes back to writing a tense, emotional scene, which has been built towards for the last nine chapters, and which will probably be read by all of fifteen people”

Comments

[ilye-elf.livejournal.com]

Very well said.

I know I don't update my own much anymore, because I just don't have the time, but I do like to read fic now and then when I have minute and it's getting more and more difficult to find anything without this pairing that I now won't touch with a medicated barge pole. It's not that I'm complaining about lack of feedback or anything else; it's just that this is turning into the two-random-characters show, isn't it?

[ex-fimbreth.livejournal.com]

Well that's just crap. Doubt is an excellent, well-written story even though I'm a bunch of chapters behind and I totally suck where the characters have real depth. So it doesn't have a fuck-a-minute and it's a less common pairing... it still rocks.

The comment that "it would be more popular if it was Erestor/Glorfindel" is to demean a deep and poignant story, whether the words were intended to be hurtful or not.

I would say more, but my thoughts are becoming progressively more hostile, so I believe it would be prudent for me to end there. *huff*

*hugs* Don't you dare stop, Kei.

[larianelensar.livejournal.com]

Bless you for having the balls to say this!! To be completely honest, I will actually avoid stories with E/G pairings now. I'm so TIRED of them. There are other elves. There are other non-elves! I'll even take a good Grima story over E/G! (and believe me, that's saying A LOTTTTTTT)

Just hang on, I have a feeling that the whole thing will cycle around again, and it will be BAD to write E/G....you know...

[riina2504.livejournal.com]

I personally love Thranduil. And Haldir. But that doesn't mean I won't read (or write) anything else. I haven't read anything, almost anything, in the fandom lately, because my muse has gone missing and I feel that the time I'd spend reading stories, I should spend writing. And I can't. When I read, I leave fb, and Quicker is on my list of stories to read. Definitely, and I know you did not mean the rant like that :)

You're not shallow at all. Writing is a huge effort and of course you'd want people to give your story a chance, and not to pass it by just because it's not a two-dimensional, mushy story of (sappy)Erestor/(roguish)Glorfindel. Every story deserves a chance. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in the fandom that do not care about plot, or about the depth of character, or about the quality of writing. They're content with the same old, same old. Perhaps it's a question of age? Most of the readers have to be in their teens.

But there's also another side to the E/G craze. I being one person who is in the midst of a E/G story (started two years ago, when they weren't all that hot), I also feel bad when people start talking about not reading E/G because it is so popular, and so many crappy fics are written about it, and why, oh why cannot anyone come up with a new twist to that pairing at least. So, my story is as doomed as yours. And basically for the same reason, the pairing.

And if this makes absolutely no sense it's because I'm finalizing the swap fic. God, I hate it.

Good luck with the scene *hugs*

[kenazfiction.livejournal.com]

Sing it, sister!!

Believe me, I understand.My main story involves Haldir and Elemmakil. Elemmakil was a minor character from Tolkien's 'Lost Tales' who lived in Gondolin. I have gotten more than a couple emails from people who have become avid readers only because someone else begged them to read it, and they openly acknowledge that they wouldn't have read it without the rec because they didn't recognize the pairing. I appreciate their candor and I'm thrilled they're reading now, but sheesh! Have an open mind and try some new pairings!

I additionally get frustrated because I really don't like writing smut. Love reading it, but hate writing it. My stories are long and involved with slow buildups to sex. I have likewise had people tell me my story would be more popular if there were more smut in it. There *is* sex in my story, but it's comfortably nestled between the things *I* find important-- character development and plot.

I have no problem with PWP and I read it all the time. I commend people who are good at writing smut. As a writer, I prefer to make it secondary in my stories.

So I completely understand where you're coming from. It's exasperating to have people ignore your work because it's not the most popular pairing, just as it's frustrated to hear that people only really want PWP.

I, for one, adore your story. I love long tales with strong characters, and these qualities 'Doubt' has in abundance. To hell with the naysayers! It's their loss. Truly.

[riina2504.livejournal.com]

Oh, and Santa has a couple of lovingly prepared icons for you :) Should be in your inbox by Saturday.

[erestor.livejournal.com]

What a lot of bullshit, sorry the language. Where would we get to if authors had to bow to "fashion pairings"? You are upset, and rightly so! >:(

When I began writing Erestor/Glorfindel, this was a "huh... Who?" pairing. Back then, I got mails from people who told me "but really, don't be disappointed if nobody will read it. Can't you write Legolas/Aragorn instead? Or twincest?"

Not to forget the well-meaning readers who suggested that I include at least one sex scene per story to double my readership.

But it's just like you say: you write what you want, what gets in your mind and FOR YOURSELF. Unfortunately, the fandom has come to the point where the smut surfers ("if it's not NC-17, I'm not going to read it") and the pairing-obessed ("I only read it if it's got Resty and Glory" don't get me started on nicknames have taken over. This is a shame, but we can't change it.

All we can do is: what we like. And enjoy it. And enjoy it that the people who like it as well enjoy it. There are definitely more than fifteen people reading your tales. I read them, but I'm a lousy feedback-giver, and I know it. I should tell those authors that I like that I DO read and DO enjoy their stories.

They will go away, eventually, or find another "OMGTEHONLYTR2PAIRING!!"

Quite honestly: after I got a mail from someone who told me that she couldn't see why I "started to write E/G now when so many authors already do it" (...), I was very tempted to send Erestor and Glorfindel to Mordor and write, don't know, something really, really unpopular. But then I'm stubborn. ;-) And wrote warrior!Erestor instead.

Go ahead and write, my dear, for you do it well. Yes, there are a lot of smut surfers, but at the same time, there are still a lot of people left who really appreciate good story telling, and they will read your tales. And believe me, there are more than 15 of them! :)

Erestor

[erestor.livejournal.com]

PS: When I was looking for a beta, someone offered with the words "... usually, I only beta NC-17, but I might be convinced to beta lower ratings if they are worth it."

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuude... major howl from me.

[erviniae.livejournal.com]

Oh-Kei, try not to let what people say bother you-I know it is easier said than done.

You are a brilliant writer, I admire you so much. Your ability humbles me.

I adore Doubt--the way you weave the tale, explain and develop the characters...the way you advance a character's development.

People will always offer advice, even if it is not wanted...such is human nature.

Just remember that there are many who enjoy your story, I know off hand of 2 people who do, but just aren't regular commentors.(If that is even a word?) LOL

You write with maturity, and yes, I enjoy smut like the next person, and even PWP--but there is nothing quite like a brilliant story that builds and has their characters develop, interweave, angst, and then finally get together, even if it isn't NC-17. Even just a kiss can be thrilling. (Like your Elrond and Erestor kiss in Doubt--sighs)

Sometimes people are fixed on one mind set and don't want to expand or try other things.

PLEASE, don't let them bother you, you are in my top two alltime favorite LOTR fandom writers.

I offer you big, big hugs.
And let's write Pern slash!!! GIGGLES MANIACALLY

Kat

[mdarkdreamer.livejournal.com]

Uh...excuse me but, I happen to love this story...I know I havent posted a review yet, but I was waiting for it to be finnished. Im glad your not takeing the "Flame" to personaly couse I want more of the fic...I got flamed on one of my storys and got called a "Crackpot author and Stupid", yet I still write, like you, I write for the love of writeing...Im happy to hear you are going to ignore this "Flamer"

((Hug))

~DarkDreamer

[nikkiling2.livejournal.com]

Well, I love your story, and I'm glad it's not E/G. I don't care about the pairing so much as the plot and character development, although I do admit, I am more likely to read about familiar characters than the unfamiliar ones. I love your plot and character development.... okay, and the little dog too. hehehe
Oddly, I find it a rude thing to tell an author that their story would be better with a different pairing. It does not seem constructive advice, but berating the author for acting as an independant instead of a lemming. *shrugs* But that's just me. I love the independants!
And I have another friend who as become so sick and tired of E/G, that she refuses to read the pairing, shich is kinda sad actually, because there is some good stuff out there.
I really love your story, and if I don't always review, it's most likely I've lost the time. I'm glad that you're undaunted, and can't wait to see the next chapter! To use an odd analogy, your cake is positively delicious, and I thank you for sharing!!! lol

[inwe-saralonde.livejournal.com]

Where do these people come from? They have to realise that writers are not going to cater just for their tastes. They should have the sense not to tell you that they really only prefer a particular pairing. Worse still is that, to some of them, the story is only worthwhile reading if there's a lot of smut. Sure, I'll write 'smut' if I feel it's warranted and is part of the story line, but there are other things to write about as well. It's their loss if they choose to ignore stories written by people who write something more of substance and, oh horror, actually have a plot/story line! While I happily read PWP stories, I do like stories that have some meat to them. I love 'Doubt', though I confess that, right at this very moment, I have a number of chapters of your story sitting in my inbox, waiting to be read. I can't wait for the holidays so I can finally sit down in peace and read them all! So just bring forth the next chapter, will you?

*hugs*

[tuxedo-elf.livejournal.com]

You know my feelings on the topic I think, but just to be sure, I agree with you 100%! I know I get less feedback because of the characters I write, I've learned to deal with it. But yes, it does hurt when you realise that unless you write 'the pairing' you're going to get basically ignored, no matter how good the story.

I'm glad you made this post. It needed saying.

[http://users.livejournal.com/fishyz9_/]

**But there's also another side to the E/G craze. I being one person who is in the midst of a E/G story (started two years ago, when they weren't all that hot), I also feel bad when people start talking about not reading E/G because it is so popular, and so many crappy fics are written about it, and why, oh why cannot anyone come up with a new twist to that pairing at least. So, my story is as doomed as yours. And basically for the same reason, the pairing.**

Everything you just said there.... Yes, yes, and YES again. Thanks for saying that.

Fishy*

*hugs beloved cucumber also*

[chloe-amethyst.livejournal.com]

Bless you, bless you, for saying what needs to be said. From the time I started my LJ account, I've been clear that I'm a fanfic floozy--no OTP, no "I'll only read *that*, but not *that*!" None of that crap. I don't even discriminate by species, as I will *not* only read Elves. Why? Because there are too many damn good writers out there, and I want to read their fics because they are well written. Early on, time and again, I thought I wouldn't want to read about so-and-so or such-and-such, and then I fell across a fic about just those things I had a boundary against, and it was well-written and sucked me right in. All my imaginary boundaries have been breached at one point or another by an excellent writer with an excellent story.

Please realize that only the most shallow, boneheaded twits would ever think that "Doubt" needs to have a different pairing to be more popular. Anyone who says that sort of thing wouldn't know excellent writing if it hit them in the face with a stick! Don't linger on them too long, for they aren't worth it.

I'm way behind on "Doubt", but I've printed out every chapter and put them in my "to read" notebook. It's a story I absolutely must read because it's so well written and probably one of the best and most original in terms of character development that I've come across.

I couldn't agree more with what you said about readers who will only read one pairing and nothing else. There's so much wonderful stuff out there--why limit oneself so artificially? It also seems that the more maudlin and mawkish E/G has become the most popular. I still read E/G fics, but I try to seek out the better writers nowadays. Saying I would no longer read any E/G ever because so many aren't very good is to me as bad as saying E/G is all you read. No one should unequivocally dismiss a pairing without having learned whether the writing in an individual fic actually has merit.

[slayer9649.livejournal.com]

Upon careful reflection, I decided to chip in my humble 2 cents worth. Personally, I will read about any Elf paired with another ellon. Females don't interest me, nor wizards, hobbits or dwarves, at least not in any romantic context. They are fine as incidental characters, though. You can put Erestor with any Elf and I'll pounce on it, the same also holds true for Elrond or Glorfindel or Thranduil or Haldir or Gil-galad or any of the First Agers. I know that there are others, like me, who are not picky about the Elves involved, just so long as they *are* Elves.

I know that I look forward, with eager anticipation, to reading new chapters of Even Quicker Than Doubt, because of the way that you are weaving the story.

Being nothing but a fanfic reader, and occasional beta, I was hesitant about leaving a comment, after reading what the brilliant writers had already had to say. In the end, however, I wanted you to know that this person appreciates what you write, even if I haven't left you any feedback before.

Patricia

[aglarien1.livejournal.com]

Geez, where do these people come from? You're one of the finest quality writers out there that the rest of us look up to! Ditto to what Chloe said - it's the quality of the fic, not the pairing.
*hugs*

[lonely-lycanth.livejournal.com]

I had something very profound to say. I lost it. Oh well.
Maybe it's cruel of me, but I draw a sort of satisfaction from this. It's good to see other people of the same (or similar) mind. I know that I got into Erestor/Glorfindel around the same time it came into fashion. I don't think I was following a trend--it had something I wanted and a character interpretation to whom I could relate, and it was there. It took me a long time to get into the slash sect at all in LotR, even though I had liked it since Digimon (yes, I'm an anime geek too. Shut up.), and when I did, it was because I had grown weary of Gen fics. They started out good, and then a million people flooded the fandom, clogging it with all sorts of crap, and it was staggeringly heavy and dull. Slash was like a breath of fresh air, and Erestor (or the fandom interpretation of him) was someone I could actually relate to, moreso than the warriors and the rangers and the kings.

I started reading it, and writing it (and mind you, even though I actually WAS writing the 'it' couple, I still got no feedback!). Quickly, I fell to lurking; soon my attention started to wander. I got bored. The 'it' couple was too popular for its own good; all the stories were the same, the quality sunk. Now I don't write, I barely (if ever) read, and I never post. It was a disappearance from the fandom that, since I barely said anything anyway and don't talk to many people, I doubt anyone remarked. But I'm something of a fanfiction snob, and if I'm going to read it I want it to be good (which I'm sure yours is, though I haven't read it because I've spent precious little time reading fanfiction at all). I traveled to other fandoms, none of which satisfied. I spent about three weeks in Queer as Folk before running out of original plots. It's tired, it's recycled, and it seems like people are only writing fanfiction at all because of some weird fad.

The point is, it's not just Erestor/Glorfindel, or whatever IT couple. It all seems to have lost something. Half of it is terribly written, and even a lot of the well written things lack heart. I am glad to see that you care about your writing, especially enough to write what you want despite a certain lack of attention.

I am also sorry this comment is so long and rant-ish. At this point, I should probably copy and paste this into my own journal, but I always seem to do this in comments on other people's posts.

Cheers, and best luck with writing,
~tineryn

[lonely-lycanth.livejournal.com]

That's almost awesome it's so pathetic. And now I'm trying not to say something too rude at their expense.

[caduceus.livejournal.com]

Hi :)

I understand your point, both as a reader and as an artist. And although people have never bothered me about the characters I draw or the pairings I prefer, I realize that my art is a bit Glorfindel-centred and that I need to give other characters a chance.
Never let yourself be influenced by the mainstream. That usually is not the story you wish to tell - and if it makes you unhappy, then how ever could something good come of it?!

Glorfindel/Gil-galad is a very interesting pairing, and one I loved reading when Ilye first sent me her "Flawless" story. I stumbled across yours on LJ sometime in the past, and have noted it down for further reading once uni backs off a bit. :)
Please, keep writing what truly moves you!

Love,
Nellas

ps.: I've friended your LJ so we might keep in touch. Hope you don't mind.

[sildil]

'...goes back to writing a tense, emotional scene, which has been built towards for the last nine chapters, and which will probably be read by all of fifteen people...'

Actually...sounds really interesting! I would read it, if I knew where to find it...please?

[ford-of-bruinen.livejournal.com]

I think you already know my opinions on this :) if not then you are one of the better writers in the fandom with a strong plot and character driven story that does not use cookie cutters (more should try that really), secondly a story is about characterisation and plot, not what names you put on the charactersand those reading only erestor/glorfindel fics are missing out on some good stories, not to mention that it is not always erestor and glorfindel they want to read, they want the cookie cut stories with the same characterisations, not anything new no matter the pairing (;) and you know the background of imperfections.. I am sure we discussed this then in detail.) The long and short of it is that I find it ridiculous to read only certain pairings (hey hobbit sex squicks me but i still have read a wonderful hobbt fic... I just can't remember the name or anything) but then I find it equally ridiculous to avoid some stories simply based on wether they are erestor/glorfindel or not, it should be the storythat counts not the names on the characters

Right I am repeating myself so I will shut up now... hopefully I'll catchyou online at some stage soon

*big hugs*

Uli

Fandom Frustrations

[mornnen.livejournal.com]

What was that person thinking? Or perhaps thought was not involved. Maybe I am in the minority here, but I get frustrated with the glut of Erestor/Glorfindel. Not that I don't enjoy the characters, but there is a saying about too much of a good thing and variety being the spice of life and different is good. Just my 2 cents.
Mornnen, who is going back to lurker status.

[enismirdal.livejournal.com]

*thinks Doubt is fantastic and prefers it to the majority of "fashionable" fics out there* ;)

I'm glad you intend to finish it, cos it's DAMN GOOD! *fangrrls* *bounces* And the characters and atmosphere in the fic...so memorable, striking, cool and generally awesome. :D :D :D

[enismirdal.livejournal.com]

*thinks your warrior!Erestor is seriously hot* *slurpdroolgibber* *big grin*